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I need some advice again

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  Quote digger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: I need some advice again
    Posted: 29 Aug 2008 at 7:52pm
Hello everyone, I do hope that you are all having a good growing season, anyway I am in need of some information, I am still tinkering about with cuttings and recently I have read a book about propagation in general, there is a few words about clems, and the book gives one reason for failure thus: ensure that the cutting material has juvenile buds in the leaf axil of the stem that you are using.
 Now I may be wrong but I presumed that each leaf axil had a dormant bud in it? I have gone around with my magnifying glass to look at young growth to see if there are any buds in the axils, can someone clever please give me a definative answer to the question of whether every leaf axil will have a juvenile dormant bud within? thanks v much 
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  Quote Peter Gooch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2008 at 9:46am
Hi Digger,
I'll have a go at answering this for you.
No, there is not always a juvenile bud in every leaf Axil.
Firstly if the growth you use is too young then the node will not have completely formed and so the plant if pinched out or cuttings taken will not shoot out from here.
Secondly and with only one or two exceptions if there has been a flower pedicil from a leaf Axil then there is not usually a secondary bud to come from here, hence we don't use flowering wood and leaf joints for cuttings. The exceptions are the florida types and NZ types which often shoot out growth from next to the flowers.  Alistar Keay does a lot of cuttings of the florida clematis from the flowering growth as it is often the strongest part of the stem.
Lastly if the growth is too woody then it is unlikely to be suitable for cuttings anyhow, unless you wound the stem going into the cutting medium you use, which will give a greater surface area possible for root to grow.  Hopefully there will be a dormant bud there still!
 


Edited by Peter Gooch - 30 Aug 2008 at 9:48am
Peter Gooch
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  Quote digger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 2008 at 10:30am
Thanks for that peter, I will take care to look for any signs of buds in the axil before I select the material for cutting,  I think that I have already made the mistake of taking a cutting for rooting without checking the axils.
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2008 at 12:33pm

I assume you have read my article on taking cuttings in the 2005 edition of the BCS Journal.

One or two point on this article; I have subsequently found out that some fungicides inhibit root formation of cuttings, so I now only use Murphys Traditional Copper Fungicide, but do not soak the cuttings before hand. Now I stick the cuttings first and then drench the cuttings in their tray before placing them in the propagator. I exclusively use Clonex as the rooting hormone dipping the tip of the cutting for 3 seconds before sticking in the rooting medium.

Consider using double node cuttings especially for Atragenes and New Zealand clematis, obviously one uses more material, but success in growing on the cuttings is greatly enhanced.

With regard to presence or absence of buds in the leaf joint, these are always present, but may be immature and or not visible generally in the young top growth, which is too weak for cuttings anyway. One or two types of bud may be present, foliar or flower, avoid growth that may have flower buds present, as this may inhibit the formation of foliar growth, i.e. take cuttings out of the flowering season of the clematis. My advise is don’t bother to look for buds at the leaf axles, but take cuttings from plants that are in active growth, usually early in the season. Discard the first three nodes from the tip of the stem, the rest of the stems new growth will be entirely suitable for cuttings. Take pruning group 1 cuttings after the plants have flowered, using the new seasons growth.

Roy Nunn Cambridge

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  Quote digger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 2008 at 1:51pm
 Hello Roy thank you so very much for taking the time to help me out, Unfortunately I don't have your 2005 article is it available on this site? I have just recently discovered the clonex rooting gel and I have used this on some cuttings, I did use some cheshunt compound but I also have Murphy's copper fungicide which I shall use, last year I did root some cuttings in perlite in the propagator but the success rate was below 50% (using rooting powder) I have a few clematis in pots growing in the new greenhouse that I got just for clematis, these are still producing some nice new growth, but I am aware that because they are indoors,I may get new growth at an unseasonal time of year, is it alright to take cutting material from indoor clematis at any time of year? I have in the propagating greenhouse heated gravel/grit and full spectrum and son ti agro lights, so I could give the stems enough artificial light, or would you recommned that I should take cutting material at a certain time of year? I do appreciate you taking the time to advise me, many many thanks.
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  Quote Peter Gooch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 9:48am
Hi all.
I think Roy's article was great and have read it again now.
With the permission of the Editor could you post it on here?
 
Peter Gooch
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  Quote digger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2008 at 9:55am
That wouldbe a good idea,I've only been a member for a couple of years so i didn't get to read it when it was written, perhaps someone could point me in the direction of a particular book that covers propagation in depth?
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  Quote schristmas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2008 at 9:58pm
Hi everyone,
 
Roys article unfortunately cannot be provided within the public domain without the prior authorisation of the society (as it is the society that holds the copyright and not the editor - the editor is paid  by the society for their services).
The article can be made available for viewing within the private area of the website which is available to members only.
I have scanned the document into a pdf and the link below will take you to the page from which it can be viewed although you will need your members area login and password handy to access the page.
 
Link removed awaiing Roys updated version.
 
Kind regards
 
Steve


Edited by schristmas - 04 Sep 2008 at 9:59pm
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  Quote Aidan2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Sep 2008 at 11:17pm
Steve
 
Thanks very much for doing this. I've just read the article, it's really helpful. We need more of this stuff.
 
Aidan
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 5:20pm
Hi All,
 
The article by me that apeared in the Journal was not its first publication, so I do not see how the BCS can claim exclusive rights to it. Also all my articles are supplied on the understanding that the copyright remains with the author. i.e. ME. Is this not the EU Law?
 
I can supply a copy of the updated text to anyone who requests it, as this will have my exclusive copyright.
 
Perhaps we need clarification on who holds the copyright, on articles and pictures supplied to the BCS.
 
Lets say I would be extremely Peed off if this or any article of mine apeared elsewhere without my permission.
 
Roy W Nunn.
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  Quote digger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Sep 2008 at 5:49pm
Hi Roy I would have thought that the article remains the property of the author, I can understand that BCS want to make the article available to members only which is fine for us members, I understand that you would be peed off if the article appeared somewhere without your permission which is why I have read it but not printed it off, I would be forever in your debt if you could e mail  me a copy of the updated text which of course would only be for my use alone and I wouldn't share it or print it or anything without your permission. I think you are right about the text belonging to the author, if we buy a book in a shop the first page usually tells us that we musn't lend sell or hire the book to anyone and musn't copy the text without the authors permission, so i would suppose it's the same for all text whichever medium they appear in? I will send you my e mail address by Private message my friend.
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 2008 at 9:29am
Message to Steve.
I have amended the article and have sent you a copy. PLease put this on the Forum, but remove the link to the original article as I consider it to be out of date. Hence the need to check with the author beforehand.
 
Thanks
 
Roy W Nunn
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  Quote schristmas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Sep 2008 at 12:09am
Hi Roy,
 
I have removed the old link and placed a new link to your revised article below. I have reinserted the colour photo in what I think is the appropriate place as you requested. There is a reference to a tray of double soft node cuttings on the last line of the last page which looks a bit out of place as I have no picture to go with this - or is that just me?
 
If you would like this article available to anyone and not just BCS members then let me know and I will do the necessary.
 
 
Regards
 
Steve 


Edited by schristmas - 05 Sep 2008 at 12:09am
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2008 at 7:47am
Steve
Could you explain more fully about your statement "as it is the society that holds the copyright and not the editor - the editor is paid  by the society for their services"

I have not seen such a statement in the journal but perhaps it is part of the constitution? What is the situation about images which clearly carry an indication of the author's (or person who took the picture) copyright? I would have thought that this was to do with author and society - why would the editor be involved?

Thanks for your trouble
Paul
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  Quote schristmas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2008 at 11:45pm
Hi Paul,
 
I don't particularly want to get into any argument about who does or does not own copyright as it can get very involved. Obviously pictures and text provided by others remain the copyright of the person who provided them unless they formally give up those rights (I think this is true even if the picture or text are not appended as such).
I was not involved when the society was first formed and decisions taken before my time by the committee wih regard to the journal have lead to how the journal is produced today.
The overall journal itself is paid for by the BCS members of which some money is paid to the editor for their time and effort in its production. It does not necessarily go that the editor should be a BCS member (although this is always preferrable) as not every society has the luxury of having the right person for the right job.
The Journal is an important/integral part of the society and involves the editor in a lot of work including gathering articles, formatting, proofing, dealing with publishers etc. They have the final word on what goes in the journal and someone with expert knowledge on the subject is invaluable (which is why we are very lucky to have Brian as our current editor).
The journal itself contains an ISBN number and is a registered publication with the only copyright exhibited as belonging to the BCS. This I would assume gives the BCS the right to stop anyone copying the journal but would not stop the BCS reproducing the journal. It does not take away anyones rights with regards to the articles contained within the document (although it does not actually say this inside).
I never wanted to imply that the editor had any involvement with regard to releasing copyright (in fact I wanted to say the opposite). The editor is responsible for ensuring that what goes in the journal was not infringeing any existing copyright laws.
 
I think thats how I understand it but I could well be wrong (I usually am) - so I apologise for any errors I may have made now or previously.
 
Steve
  
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Sep 2008 at 2:55pm
Thanks Steve
Perhaps the bottom line is that before anything is reproduced there should be a mutual consent between author(s) and BCS.
The rights of the BCS are presumably quite free as you say. From the author's point of view, there is the question as to whether it is necessary to indicate copyright on images and text. Perhaps legally this has no significance but in practice may serve as a deterrent.
Paul
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  Quote Everett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2009 at 11:37am
Going back to the original question re cuttings I think it is fair to say young, thin vines are best and that most commercial growers use vines from young plants. Vines from plants in the garden are sometimes too thick so it is a bit hit and miss.If so, slice a bit of the top layer off the bootom of the stem before dipping into hormone rooting powder. Try hardwood cuttings of montana -internodal in Nov-Dec, by july you will have some success, keep just damp not wet. E
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  Quote digger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jan 2009 at 12:15pm
Thank you for that, You're Everett leeds aren't you?
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  Quote Everett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2009 at 9:24am
Yep! E
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  Quote digger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Jan 2009 at 3:06pm
I have sent you a private message
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