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Wilt, will have to give up

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sacromonte View Drop Down
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  Quote sacromonte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Wilt, will have to give up
    Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 10:36am
Can somebody help me please.  I adore growing Clematis, spent a fortune on them and have 25 varities.  At least 8 of them suffer from wilt and am so desperately unhappy and am about to rip them all out and never grown them again because of the wilt.  I've planted them deep, keep them well watered all year, they grow beautifully, produce leaves and massive of buds and then for no reason,  they start to wilt at the top.  I know I can cut them down and they'll regrow, but that doesn't stop the disappointment of seeing a lovely plant flowering and then wilt away and then have  large gaps all over the garden right in the middle of summer and then have to run back to the garden centre to find something else to fill it.
 
It's so infuriating, especially when you see displays at Chelsea with stunning varities, I bet those growers don't suffer from it!!
 
Are there any types of Clematis that aren't prone to wilt or is it a virus or something in the soil.  If it is a virus, how do I treat it in the flower beds? I couldn't resist buying another one the other day and decided not to plant it and am keeping it in it's pot to see what happens to that. 
 
I'd appreciate some advice as I'm about to dig them all up and throw them away and never ever grow them again.  But the thought of a garden without them is too much to bear!
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  Quote digger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 2009 at 5:40pm
I understand your pain, there are many clematis that don't suffer from wilt, the ones that do tend to suffer from wilt are usually the large flowered hybrids I overcame the problem a little by buying a greenhouse exclusively for clematis and the early large flowered hybrids reside in there in large pots, maybe brian Collingwood or Roy Nunn will read your post and give you some really good advice
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2009 at 8:15am
Hi,
 
It would apear that you have a similar situation to me. I have been growing clematis in various gardens for many years, during this time I have found that the clematis classed in pruning group 1 (Early Large Flowered Clematis) are prone to a fungal disease called Clematis Wilt. In our present garden I find that any most group 2 clematis will continually get wilt. In our case they rarely die but after being cut down regrow only to collapse just as they are about to flower the following year.
 
I have found that Clematis in the groups 1 and 3 do not suffer from the Wilt fungus, but it is thought that some group 3 plant may actually carry the disease without being affected.
 
The answer; only grow the Early small flowered (group1) or the Late flowering varieties (group 3). I have in all cases where I have a plant that has been afflicted by Wilt that I dig it up and immediately plant a group 3 clematis in its place, or a group 1 if you want early flowers.
 
Some good varieties that have been planted to replace wilted plants are:
 
Clematis Blue Angel (pale lilac/blue, Madam Julia Correvon (Red), Etoile Violet (Deep Purple), Heather Herschell (Pink), Hagelby White, Semu (Violet Blue), but there are many more.
 
Action, dig up the affected clematis, dig in some organic matter into the soil, add a handfull of bonemeal. Place the clematis into the prepared hole, do not plant deeply, there is no advantage with this group. Half fill the planting hole with soil and water in with at least 10 ltres of water if the plant is in active growth, backfill the rest of the soil and firm in with your hands. cut back the top growth by half and mulch the soil surface with composted material 30 to 50 mm deep. I usually give 10 litres of water to newly planted clematis every two weeks for the first two months after planting. If planting outside the growing season just firm in the plant, dont water it in, dont cut it down, but as soon as it comes into active growth in spring, feed, cut down and water as above.
 
It is quite easy to have a clematis in flower for every month of the year if you choose your varieties carefully. I achieve this without having to resort to growing group two clematis.
 
Group three clematis also combine well with climbing roses, so dont give up just discard the wilters and plant some of the above named varieties or similar in their place.
 
Best of luck
 
Roy Nunn
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  Quote sacromonte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2009 at 10:16am
Thank you so much for your replies.  I was beginning to think I was the only person in the world who was having this problem.  I will certainly take your advice, but it's going to break my heart digging the old ones up, but far better to start again, than having the disappointment in watching my lovely plants wilt away.  Incidentally, if it is some sort of fungus thinggy - is it my fault because it's in the soil, or is it in the plant?  How do plants actually get it - are they grown with it, or do they "catch" the fungus from something when they are planted in the garden?    How do professional breeders avoid it I wonder?  Is there any work being done in the breeding of these large flowered varieties to stop it?  Or is it my garden that's infected with it?  You see these lovely displays of large flowering Clematis on the tv at Chelsea and you ache to be able to grow those, but you can't, well I can't now.  I'll try the varieties you suggested.  Thanks so much for your help.
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  Quote sacromonte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2009 at 10:24am
Hi Roy - me again.  How do I know what groups Clematis are in?  Bought one the other day, the one I'm too scared to plant out, and looked at the label and it doesn't actually say what group it's in, just when it flowers.  Also looked at a website and they give the date of flowering but don't specify what group they are in. 
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 2009 at 9:03pm
Hi, The problem is that the fungus is possibly present on the plant when you buy it, or it is hanging around in your garden awaiting the arival of yet another victim. The problem is that there is no fungicide available to the amateur that will control this fungi. It enters the plant either through damaged stems or leaves, travels down the stems and stops the sap from rising at the point that the blockage occurs.
Nurseries have access to fungicides that are not available to the amateur, but also mostly nursery plants are grown in tunnels or greenhouses where the wilt generally does not cause such problems.
 
Pruning groups group 1 includes the winter and spring flowering clematis.
Group 2 clematis flower on growth that was made last year at around late May to the end of June, but they may also flower on the current seasons growth in August or September.
Group 3 clematis flower on the current seasons growth, so cut them down to a foot above ground level in late February, they will then produce growth and flower from June onwards. Some varieties will continue to flower into October.
 
One other point if you buy clematis from a garden centre in the small 9 cm pots they will need to be grown on for a year in at least a 2 litre long tom pot, before planting out in the garden.
 
A catalogue from a good clematis nursery will have the pruning groups listed.
 
Roy
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 2009 at 7:24am
Hi Again.
I missed mentioning a very good website where pruning groups are listed, plus many pictures and descriptions, this is "Clematis on the Web" www.clematis.hull.ac.uk
 
Roy
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  Quote sacromonte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jun 2009 at 9:44am
I feel so bad keep asking you for advice!  Can you recommend a good mail order on-line company that sells Clematis?  I know you gave me a few recommendations on plants, if I said I'd like Group 3 white, purples and pink colours, hopefully with largish flowers (not prone to wilt), which would you recommend?
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jun 2009 at 8:45am

www.thorncroft.co.uk  or www.clematis-westpahal.de are two good nurseries that do mail order.

C. Peverill Pristine or Kathryn Ckhapman WHITE
C. Morning Heaven, Entel or Tentel PINK
C. Etoile violette, Polish Spirit PURPLE
 
View these on the Hull website
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  Quote bcollingwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jun 2009 at 11:40pm
http://www.taylorsclematis.co.uk/
 If you 'phone them, they'll assist & give you growing good advice and tips, too.


Edited by bcollingwood - 24 Jun 2009 at 11:42pm
B. R. Collingwood
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jul 2009 at 1:27am
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A different approach may be needed, I grow more than 200 Group B (2) Clematis with little problem of wilt.
Start drench all plant and all new arrival in a Trichoderma product (water soluble NOT PRILS)
Winter prune all in this group HARD (10-15cm above ground) and burn clippings then spray with lime sulphur as a cleen-up, feed and mulch, spring flowering will be delayed a bit and you will only get double on the "real" true doubles.

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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jul 2009 at 9:11am
My readings on Trichoderma seem to indicate that it offers protection from soil bourn pathogens and is dormant at low temperatures, so I wonder if it would be effective against airbourn fungi. It apears also to break down timber and attach mushroom mycelium. Is it licenced as an amateur garden product in the UK?
Lime Sulphur also does not apear on the list of garden products available to the amateur in the UK.
I note that Yaku says that he grows 200 odd group two clematis "with little problem with Wilt" I grow two hundred odd group one and three clematis with NO PROBLEM WITH WILT. No chemicals involved, only TLC, a little fertilizer and twice a year mulch with garden compost.
 
Best of luck
 
Roy
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2009 at 9:48am
so I wonder if it would be effective against airbourn fungi. It apears also to break down timber and attach mushroom mycelium. Is it licenced as an amateur garden product in the UK?

< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">< name="GENERATOR" ="Office.org 3.0 Win32">< ="text/">

Roy, the fungi comes from the leaf on the soil and attach the roots of Clematis in pots as well, and it's used by Certified Organics growers, so Yes.
Untreated timber, yes, Did not realize you do grow mushroom.
On LimeSulphur  can't tell, it may only be available in commercial quant.
Formalin works well for cleanup as well.
As I  run a nursery TLC do not fully cover requirement.
The most popular Clematis for the general public is ELF's, and I do recommend the the smaller flowering  (the summer flowering are absolutely my favorite, Atragene do not grow here ) , still it's no more than 1:20 going for them.  My suggestions is How you may be successful in growing Group B (2)




Edited by yaku - 09 Jul 2009 at 9:56am
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2009 at 10:52am
This was my problem, nurseries can use chemicals that are not available to the amateur gardener, therefore if the Wilt fungus is present in the garden. I have no legal method of stopping this fungus attacking my group two plants. It would be far better if nurseries worked on and promoted plants that were not affected by wilt rather than using chemicals to control nursery diseases, only for the plants to die soon after being sold. I give talks to garden Clubs and one of the most frequently asked questions, apart from pruning, is about sudden collapse of what apears to be perfectly healthy group two clematis just as they are about to flower. My answer is to plant a group three clematis in its place and have a really good moan to its supplier and hopefully, one day , the message will get through that it is unacceptable to supply plants that are susseptible to a disease that the general gardener has no control over.
 
THe long term result has got to be the decline in sales of clematis to the general public.
 
I now do not want to grow group two clematis any more as I can achieve year round flowering with groups one and three.
 
I am not sure what country you reside in but in the UK we have laws that ban the use of certain chemicals, some that are available to the commercial grower are not available to the amateur.
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jul 2009 at 11:27am
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Roy, the products I suggest are available or can be made at home in UK, I'm NOT using anything in the nursery you can't use in UK or California for that case, I do use a products in my propagating there are not available for  home gardeners "Amistar", the fools in MAF did introduce the most aggressive strain of Clematis wilt to fight Clematis vitalba ( it's immune to wilt), but causes havoc in the prop.
Now you have guessed it I'm in NZ.
Still I'll say the same as Brewster Rogerson "Clematis wilt do worry people a lot more than it worries the Clematis" But do not be foolish, purchase 2 years old plants they will not die from wilt.
I have grown Clematis in Denmark, Sweden and now in NZ and have not lost any Clematis planted out in the garden. I have tried hard to persuade customer to purchase plants they can succeeds with, only to find them going elsewhere to purchase those as they do not want to embarrass themselves purchasing them from anyone there try to tell them they are not good for their garden.
To anyone want to plant Group B (2) "Plant deep 15 cm deeper than in pots, prune hard in late winter" My customers come back and raving about how well their ELF grows!!  And yes I do NOT sell half rooted cuttings in 7cm pots!
If the nurseries decided to only grow Group A & C, 90 % of us will have to close the Clematis side, still there are many Group B(2) there never get wilt.
Sadly "Dr. Wilt's" well published, unscientifically obsession with Clematis stem wilt has tainted many's mind. Anyone want to know more about "Growing Clematis successful" can get it in a .pdf from
http://www.vanplant.co.nz/yaku/pages/HowToPlant090422.pdf



Edited by yaku - 12 Jul 2009 at 11:34am
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2009 at 12:51pm
Thanks for your reply.
I find it interesting that you recommend pruning your group B clematis in late winter. I have tried this in our garden, only to find that I only get the autumn single flowers if they are doubles, or if we get late frosts all the remaining to growth is decimated resulting in no flowers at all for that year.
 
Can you list the group B (2) clematis that never get Wilt
 
Was there not some scientific work carried out at a British university by a European Scientist, results published in the IClS Journal a few years ago?
 
But my problems are with growing group B (2) clematis in my garden. This is not an isolated case of the odd plant in this group, or plants obtained from one nursery, but seems to affect most plants in this group that I have tried to grow. It seems to be a problem that many gardeners are facing.
 
I have printed off your growing guide, will read it at my leasure.
 
Roy
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  Quote 2ManyClematis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jul 2009 at 2:05pm

Returning to the orginal poster's question, I am sure I saw somewhere that relatively few of the wilted clematis referred the RHS for analysis have actually suffered as a result of fungal attack, although I can't find this comment on their website.

Certainly in my case (and I grow about 100 Type 2 clematis in pots in Surrey) I am pretty sure that most of my cases of wilting are in fact due to water stress.  It took me a while to understand just how much wetter clematis like the compost to be than other plants and to achieve this without their roots rotting as a result of standing in water.  In addition it took me a while to link thirst to foliage - one of the best things I ever did was buy a moisture meter, which showed me just how much more water a plant with lots of foliage needs than a plant whose foliage is sparse.
 
My point is that "well watered" is relative.  I get good results by working on the assumption that a Type 2 clematis' need for water peaks when the buds are about to break and if there isn't enough, it will abort some or all of the stems.  I'll happily admit that I have no science to back this up though.
 
Huw
 
 
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  Quote Ron.G.Carlile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jul 2009 at 10:51pm
Hi Yaku. ands Roy
I have been interested in your mail re group 2 clematis .  I have only one group 2 Clematis in my garden ,the rest are group 1 or 3 ,  the reason  for this is I do  not like big flashy blooms .   From the C.montana through to the very late
C.texensis or so there is always a Clematis in bloom in my garden .   I have managed to cross,  some of the late group 1 with early group 3 .  I would not say they were commercial standard of plants but i like them.
They are dwarf growing  1.5 to 2 MTS.,high so I find it difficult to get cuttings from them .  If the group 2 plants had more neater flowers on them I may give them a try .  I hope the discussion continues it is good to hear different opinions.
All the Best


Edited by Ron.G.Carlile - 14 Jul 2009 at 10:56pm
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2009 at 10:32am

Roy, nearly all Clematis can get wilt, but you probably hard prune all those summer flowering one.
This with hard pruning You need to feed them when you prune and on the most you only get a slight delay in flowering, at least they will flower, but for every week you delay feeding after pruning you will get at least 2weeks delay of flowering! 

Just one thing I think the posts here are fine but the site is not much, and I think I'll just keep to <gardenbuddies.com> there are a great international forum and the postings many times the numbers here.



Edited by yaku - 20 Jul 2009 at 10:16am
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jul 2009 at 2:41pm
Hi Yaku,
 
I do know when to prune and feed. I have been growing clematis for over forty years and still have some of my original plants, alas no group twos are in the fourty year catagory though. Growing Clematis in the East of England may be entirely different to growing on the North Island of New Zealand, similar to Germany, but diferent to Sweden.
 

HOW TO GROW CLEMATIS SUCESSFULLY

 

Having printed off your information sheet on growing clematis and looked at your website, it is obvious that you have different conditions that affect growth on your clematis. I agree that we should prune our group one clematis more than is recommended, but to cut down to 1 meter after flowering every second year would seem to be over the top. Your instruction to cut down group two clematis in late winter, would possibly work in the South West of the UK, but does not work in the colder areas of Britain.

 

It is interesting that none of the chemicals listed in your instruction appear on our Health and Safety Executive list of products available in the UK for amateur garden use, therefore they are not sold in our garden stores. Even Sunspray oil, which is I believe manufactured in Belgium is not available to us.

 

I have conducted a few experiments with groups two and three plants to try to sort out in my own mind the reasons for sudden collapse of most group two clematis in our garden.

 

1)    Lack of water or Wilt. I have noticed that sudden collapse of group two clematis has occurred but no group three clematis growing adjacent to the group twos has had a similar problem, my conclusion was if not due to Wilt, do group 2 clematis require more water than group three? Trials carried out in the greenhouse seem to indicate that C. viticella species require less water than group two plants, but hybrids such as Emelia Plater, Prince Charles and Blue Angel seemed to require similar amounts of water to group twos. When water was withheld from plants, there was a gradual decline in plant vigour, then the plant (presumably when all water was used up) started into rapid decline, aborting flowers, drooping leaves etc. What was noticed though was at this stage the plants could be watered and the leaves drenched and all the plants would fairly quickly revive.

 

Conclusion lack of water results in a fairly slow decline in the plants health but by giving water at the roots and drenching the foliage plants may be brought back to life fairly quickly. Sudden collapse in group two clematis (Wilt) occurs very quickly and no amount of water applied to the roots or drenching of top growth will stop the plants decline. Growth may start a month or two later or next year or even not at all.

 

2)    Stem damage, stem damage has been observed on all my groups one two and thee plants, mainly caused by snails, but some new stems in spring were eaten by catapillars or mice, also some mechanical damage is often caused by wind or careless handling, but usually only one or two stems will be damaged. If this damage is present in all plants, why is it only group two plants that seem to Wilt.

 

Conclusion, sudden collapse of group two plants due to stem damage is thought to be caused by the Wilt fungus entering damaged stems and blocking rising sap lower down the stem.

 

3)    Hardiness, Some group two clematis grown in our north facing garden seem not to be entirely hardy, hence some fail to survive our cold winters. It is also noticeable that plants grown in pots that are overwintered in our cold greenhouse rarely seem to suffer with sudden collapse, is it possible that clematis that have survived the winter outside are stressed and are more prone to sudden collapse. During these cold winters, so called, less hardy plants such as napaulensis, cirrhosa and connata have thrived more than 15 winters.

 

Cold winters have resulted in Multi blue, Vyvyan Pennell, Dr Ruppel, Fireworks, failing to grow the next spring, also Betty Risdon, Jackmanii Alba, Barbara Jackman, Fireflame and Mrs N Thompson have suddenly collapsed (Wilt).

 

4)    Why does C. Piilu remain the only group two clematis in our garden that has not suffered sudden collapse and why have no group one and three clematis suffered sudden collapse (Wilt). I leave you to your own conclusions.

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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2009 at 9:58am
Roy's text: but to cut down to 1 meter after flowering every second year would seem to be over the top.

Thats not what it say, I do agree The Pruning group A is placed wrong (editorial glitch)
under the Heading: Second year and onward.

It should read

First year: 

Pruning Group "A"

After flowering, cut back to one metre, in subsequent years cut out weak and dead stems.

But,  Thanks for pointing out the error.

And you are right Group C do not like as much water as group B

 

Wilt; any new strong undamaged stem have quite a resistance to wilt, and most wilt seems to take a year to develop to its killing power.

As said before We (the growers) find Trichoderma to be very helpful, and it is not a chemical and is not under those rules the chem's come under, to not have mineral oil available, vegetable oils are maybe available, to keep those out is just not making any sense, but those decision are political and never make sense .

Your "cold" winters may be wet winters as well as cold do not kill 'Multi Blue', maybe late late frost or a weak plant with the winter coming, I'll suggest to plant deeper, but well drained!  'Multi Blue'  need more fert. in the first years, it's not good looking after itself!

I did see you said (IClS Journal) 'Blekitny Aniol' did not wilt for you, I can tell you we did have a lot of problem with it in the beginning, and yes it was wilt.




Edited by yaku - 20 Jul 2009 at 10:12am
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jul 2009 at 11:26am
Hi again,
 
I never get weak or dead stems in my group A's, especially koreana's and machropetala's, they grow at an alarmimg rate and therefore are kept within bounds by annual pruning after the spring flowering, most are now in flower again at this time of year..
I said that C.viticella species requires less water than group  B, but groups B and C hybrids require similar watering regimes.
Living in the driest part of the Uk, wet is not a problem in our garden, also our soil is in good condition, well looked after and of good drainage. As a result plants never get waterlogged even in the wettest of conditions. If it is cold and wet that was killing my group B clematis, why do group A and C not die on me. They are also watered when in growth when our varied climate dictates this requirement.
 
Plants are fed and looked after as required, this is the TLC that you have difficulty providing as a commercial grower.
 
Surprised that Blue Angel has proved to have Wilt, it is a very good plant in our garden being eight years old and has flowered well from its second year onwards. I remember talking to the late Vince Denny about the loss of two Multi Blues over successive winters, his reply was "Aye, you do know they are annuals dont you!"
 
I will continue to grow and recommend groups A and C clematis as they do not require the attention of keeping them in pots in the greenhouse over winter and do not die on me if planted out in the garden.
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jul 2009 at 1:24pm
Hi Roy
We can argue this to the cow come home, you do expect the group b to do poorly so they do, thats the rule of the universe. 'Multi Blue' its a sport of 'The President' and the flower are the only difference on them. Not saying it can not be a weak strain you got, it may.
 

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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2009 at 5:48pm
Hi Yaku,
I cannot accept your argument of expecting a plant to do poorly, so they do. If I spend good money on a plant I expect it to grow well, have lots of flowers, ie. to earn its place in the garden. When I first bought Clematis I expected them all to grow well, luckily I was advised to start by growing group three plants and to later progress to group twos. Unfortunately when I started growing this group (2), problems started to occur. I have reached that stage in my life where I try various plants, if they do poorly, they get replaced with other plants, but if a group of plants seems not to perform as they should I think it my duty to inform the grower/breeder to make them aware of the situation.
One point being I am very careful about which varieties of rose and from which sourse, the result being that all the roses in our garden are relatively disease free, this being achieved without the use of chemical sprays, I hope that one day the same can be achieved with clematis.
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Jul 2009 at 11:56am
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Hi Roy

We like most Clematis producers more than 90% of our plants sold  are ELF group B and we do have little complaint as well as most of our customers have little problem with wilt, so from my point whats make your place or you this so problematic.?

Some questions, You do grow/live in USDA Zone 8, Right?
when do you get your first frost?, when do you get your last frost?

whats your soil type?, pH? Do you know the hight of groundwater level, are the land generally drained (man made) Whats the country side, rolling to flat or? Whats crop are the area known for?

Water supply ?? heavy chlorinated? Can you make a good cup of tea from unfiltered water?
Do you grow Rhododendron well? Camellias well? Conifers?

What way do you plant your Rhododendrons, Kalmias, Camellias?


Some people kill plants with TLC some by neglect (probably the most difficult way) , but anything you do come down to what you believe, you believe you can do it then you can if you don't you can't!

Here we can't (our area) grow any Atragene, Integrifolia's poorly, Heraclifolias and tubolosum near impossible, so what do you think we should grow?

We are a great area to grow Rhododendron, just plunge them in the ground and they will grow, we do use them for hedges, one problem is flower trips and for that you have to spray, there are some where the trips keep away from and mildew and other diseases stay off, but they are nearly impossible to get into the gardens (take a 5year plant to flower) to be saleable they have to flower the first year in the garden. (2 Years, sold budded)

The marked just do whats required of them, supply and demand is whats goes!

When I started Clematis here in NZ Alister Keay said, why do you want those summer flowering they do not sell! We do sell many more than we did 20years ago, but it is less than 10% of production.

On the chemical sprays or any spray, I bet there are chemical sprays available in UK and some much less environmental friendly than those I suggest and even use.

And protection of ants do not mean they do not do what ants do (the forest ant are protected in Sweden ) and the most ants we got here come from outside, some probably from same sources as the snail and slugs we got here, UK. (I know, we sent you some flatworms instead)

Cheers





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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jul 2009 at 8:14pm
Yes We are in USDA 8.
We live on the outskirts of a city backed by open fields, common land. Flat fen country but we are not on fen soil in this area. The area where we live was extensively worked to remove the cuprolite deposits from the chalk, although the workings stopped just short of our property.
First frosts usually occurr in mid to late October.
Last frosts Early June, on the 8th June last year we had -10 C, but this is not common.
Soil type is very fertile well drained loam pH 6 to 8. Subsoil solid chalk to 8-20 feet, below this boulder clay, water table at this level. Water supply from collected rainwater, I dont use this water for tea. Fancy asking an English man if he can make a good cup of tea, from unfiltered water fro the tap, which has a high chalk content.
I grow Azalias and Camelias in pots, but 50 yards down the road they grow in the soil, but in that short distance the subsoil has changed to gravel, slightly acidic.
We grow most atragenes except Sibirica, needs a colder climate and sandy acidic soil.
Heracleifolia does reasonably well, but tubulosa grows well in pots in slightly acidic soil. Conatae, integrifolia, ianthina, fusca, napaulensis, cirhossa, viticella, virtually all the yellow flowered orientalis types, most of the American species, including crispa, pitcherii, texensis hybrids, columbiana tenuiloba, coactillis, hirsutissima and scottii, and of course quite a few of the group three hybrids, in fact usually about two hundred different species and hybrids.
I have given up on recta, does okay in pots but does not like our soil.
C. flammula is impossible to grow, as it does not seem to be able to cope with our variable climate.
 
C. vitalba grows naturally all round us but is not taking over the world. I also grow some NZ species and hybrids, but they need winter protection generally in a cold greenhouse.
 
I have grown group two clematis in other gardens about 10 miles distant, but have verually given up on group two plants in our garden, not for the want of trying, I am now down to three group two plants. C. Piilu continues to do very well and has been in our garden since we picked up the plant from the Kivistics Nursery in Estonia a few years back. C. Fireflame collapsed, unusually after flowering, was immediately cut back, watered with liquid fertiliser and is now growing back to two feet high. Another gift group two plant wilted when in full budthis year, was given the same treatment and is now five feet tall. Last year it was cut back by the June frost, which resulted in no flowers that year.
I only use chemical sprays as a last resort, but I do control aphids with contact insecticides, as they can spread viruses in some plants.
 
Our ants must be much more gentle than yours, but go to Scotland and disturb a nest of forest ants and beware the consequences.
 
Have not had the pleasure of your flatworms yet. We have a species of Slug in our garden that eats garden worms (tetracella) I am training them up to eat your flatworms should the ever get to our garden!
 
As I can grow many clematis in our garden I dont really miss the group twos and hope to pass on information to others who are having similar problems to me that there are clematis out there that can be grown with a little effort.
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Jul 2009 at 10:34am
< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">< name="GENERATOR" ="Office.org 3.0 Win32">< ="text/">

G'day Roy.
Just a quick comments for now , I think the alkaline soil may play a role in Group B in wilt, here nearly everything is acidic (except some areas on the northern end of South Island the home of Cl. marmoraria) all the group B seems to grow well and without much trouble when grown like Rhododendrons, they are really acid lovers and they may well be veakened by the high pH or type of calcium in the soil.
Our time in Sweden was on acid soil (granite) (we did still grow in peat there) and in Denmark you have to grow Rhododendron in special beds in peat (sphagnum) (not sedge) and NEVER mix soil and peat.
On the watering, the viticellas have very extended root system and are therefor good looking after themselves, the ELF do require more water than the summer flowering (jackmani) we do certainly see the differences growing them, the NZ species and cultivars (you have many more cultivars than we have (NZ-UK))are keept in the garden, they will drown during their dormant summer period in the nursery.

A while back I had a discussion on tea with Mr. Twinning, he was here to promote new teas, but he only came with "Teabags" (poor choice), I do not use teabags and I do not put milk in my tea, (the only reason to put milk in tea is to take the bitter taste from poorly brewed tea as well as killing the antioxidants) and I know alkaline water make poor tea.

Cheers



Edited by yaku - 27 Jul 2009 at 10:49am
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Jul 2009 at 5:49pm
Hi Yaku,
 
Some years ago I came to the conclusion that some clematis grew much more strongly in slightly acidic compost, this was largely discounted by our nursery growers, only to find that when I had the chance to check their composts, they without exception were using composts that was on the acidic side. The compost I use is in general slightly acidic, but I still get losses of group two clematis when grown in this compost, when grown outside. In previous gardens I have grown some group twos in acidic and alkaline soils, without loss. As mentioned only 100 yards away the soil changes to acidic, the gardener being able to grow Rhodos Chamelias and Azaleas in his garden, but he has problems with group twos (sudden Collapse).
 
My next project is to grow a few group twos directly into our soil in the greenhouse, to see if they perform as the pot grown plants in the greenhouse which refuse to wilt.
 
It is good that we are not all the same, I cannot abide the taste of Twinings tea, for general use we drink PG Tips tea. Also I cannot agree that soft water makes better tasting tea, but in general good quality tap water makes little difference to the taste of tea. I prefer my tea with a little semi-skimmed milk from water filtered through several feet of chalk, delivered to our taps through our local water company.
 
Do you have any tips for growing C. marata, I have some wid collected seed grown plants that are growing very slowly at the moment, I dont want to loose them over winter, which happened to the last batch. I also find C. forsterii difficult but not impossible. Some hybrids such as C. Avalanch seem to be afflicted by a progressive "Black spot" which I am told is a virus, I no longer grow this one, but I have some crosses of Early Sensation and Avalanch that seems to be free of this disease. I have just been given a cutting of C. cunninghamii, which is growing well at the moment.
 
All for now
 
Roy
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Aug 2009 at 10:12am
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Hi Roy

Many nurseries do just get a pottingmix and do really not know if it is acetic or alkaline, nearly all pottingmixes are less than pH6.


When using Trichoderma it's important to have organic matters for the fungi to live in and slightly acid soil tends to be better to cary "good" fungi's anyway plants under the slightest stress are more prone to diseases.

Keep me updated on your trial project.


I wonder if your water co. do chlorinate the water(how can you hide that?), anyway milk will change the finer flavors of tea, if come past here I'll offer you a cup of tea and you may or may not agree with me on that.


I do not really grow the NZ natives in the nursery (it's to wet in the summer) so I'm limited to those looking after themself planted in the garden. When growing in the nursery they are in a 1/4 to 1/3 orchid bark mixed into our standard pottingmix (granulated bark & pumice) we do only pot those up into new mix with slow release fertiliser in late summer or autumn (slow release will kill them in the summer if in a fresh mix) Cl. cunninghamii tends to grow like a weed here (old mans beard) got mine in a Rhodo hedge.

Those cartmani group crosses are not available here in NZ. I have not seen black spots on those we grow, but rust on them and the cirrhosa group.

Cheers Peer


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  Quote Everett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2009 at 8:56am
Perhaps our questioner should try some of the herbaceous clematis-C. 'Cassandra' has wonderful scent, is not a climber and does not suffer from wilt. OK, it only reaches 1m or a bit more, but what a plant! Everett
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  Quote Everett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2009 at 8:58am
Nice to hear from YAKU, we visited your nursery on the BCS trip to NZ in 2001-great location (and a fantastic trip). Hope you are in good health, Everett
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  Quote sacromonte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2010 at 10:27am
Can anyone explain this?  Took photo 1, ten minutes later, yes only ten minutes, couldn't believe my eyes, see photo 2.  What happened to my clematis (on advice didn't plant it, still in it's pot) as so scared of wilt.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jun 2010 at 8:34pm
Hi
 
Its a bit difficult to say what has caused this flower to die so quickly without examining the stem. One thought I have is that a stem may have been damaged by wind, or some other means, if it is only affecting one flower. I assume you have the clematis in a large pot 15 x 15 inches minimum. The foliage on the remainder of the plant looks healthy, so can only assume that one stem has been damaged. It is important to trace this stem back and sever it above a node where the leaves seem healthy, this should prevent fungus spreading down this damaged stem.
 
Roy Nunn Cambridge.
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  Quote sacromonte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 10:48am
Hi Roy,
 
I'm hoping and praying that it might be what you say.  I cut the flower off, half an hour later, I noticed that all the leaves on that stem were drooping.  Cut the whole stem off, to a node.  Now just waiting to see what happens.
 
While on the subject, have another plant that is blooming well, but noticed that some of the leaves are turning brown and crinkley on a couple of stems.  I've had this before - plant not wilting, growing well and flowering, and some leaves go brown.  What causes this? 
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  Quote Ron.Carlile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jun 2010 at 6:51pm
Hi.
I assume that your Plants are in well drained Compost .  I have very few
group 2 Clematis , and those are planted in plastic pots buried half their depth
into the soil , and a good topping of grit around the base .  When I first grew Group 2 , I lost a few to wilt , and then found out that I was watering them and they were standing  in water , and the roots were drowning .  I now try to stick to group 1 and 3 they are not as showy but more reliable in the garden .  The toughest plant I seem to grow  any where is C.princes Diana , it has along lasting flower period , it will start flowering any time soon an last all summer ,
The rest of my summer flowering clematis are  plants I have crossed from
group 1 and 2 , which over lap the two groups .  Don't give in weal  have had problems but it is possible to find which clematis are best suited for your
garden .
 
Ron.C    
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2010 at 8:23am
Hi Again,
 
Browning of leaves towards the base of the plant is common and quite natural. In the wild most clematis plants that climb would have been growing through shrubs or small trees on the edges of clearings etc. Once grown to flowering height the lower leaves would be in shade and not adding to photosinthesis, so natually the plant discards these leaves. Most of my climbers have a shrub or perennial planted to hide the base of the plant, but pruning a third of stems on established plant to within a foot of ground level in late February, on established group two plants can encourage new growth lower down the plant and helps hide bare stems.
 
Certainly look out for group three clematis, generally they are easier to grow, flower for a longer period, will cope with most soil conditions. Look on the International Clematis Society Website, Clematis of the month. This gives details of clematis grown by members that they have grown successfully enough to want to write a short piece about them.
 
Best wishes
 
Roy Nunn
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  Quote sacromonte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2010 at 10:05am
Hi Roy,
 
Know I'm being a pain, but as you can tell I'm so nervous about things.
 
The Clematis in photo below (sorry not a good picture) shows that these brown leaves are towards the top of the plant (which is flowering).  Could this still be what you suggest?  And it does happen to another one, on the other side of the trellis - hasn't happened yet, but waiting for it too!
 
Thank you and everyone else for their advice and suggestions by the way.
 
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2010 at 12:03pm
Hi,
If this is on a group two plant I would remove the dead leaf, but in fact the stem apears to be missing above the affected leaf node, so I would remove the stem just above the next leaf node down. Have look also at the leaves and stem behind the trellis as this may be affected also.
 
If on a group three plant I would not worry at all about a few dead leave. Note that in the middle of last month we had severe frosts that killed a lot of top growth on our clematis, growth has now started lower down so dead top grown has now been removed.
 
Tried to load a picture but failed, my web protection does not like this site.
 
Roy Nunn
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jun 2010 at 12:13pm
Picture added?
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