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danny connors View Drop Down
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  Quote danny connors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Help Please
    Posted: 21 Aug 2010 at 12:53pm

I really hope someone can help me re 2 clematis i am having big problems with.

Clematis texensis 'Graveteye Beauty' - about 5yrs old and although loads of leaves and looking well it has never flowered properly. I prune it hard to about 30cms  end february each year (as the books says) and this year i tried something different - i've given it tomorite since spring and then continued to pinched out the growing tips spring- till end june to try to induce more flowers - it gave me only one flower. What am i doing wrong.

Clematis 'Etoille Violette' - despite giving this one plenty of water and tomorite it just looks sick - black leaves, lax stems and distorted flowers - should i dig it up and can i replace it with another cleamtis in the same position. Help!

Stupidly enough, the other 2 i have,  have done very well and i haven't done anything to them.

I understand the pruning  but not the best way to care for them.

Also can I plant a new clematis in the same place as a previous one?

Thanks for any help.

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ton hannink View Drop Down
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  Quote ton hannink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Aug 2010 at 9:22pm
I do not prune any texensis/viorna/etc. but I get a lot of flowers. The plants must be at least 5 tears for a lot of flowers. texensis needs sun in the summer and not too wet place in the winter.
 
Ton
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danny connors View Drop Down
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  Quote danny connors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug 2010 at 12:28pm
Thanks Ton, pleased to hear you have a  texensis flowering well and i was serioulsy thinking about not pruning it all next year. First one i've ever got, but i must ask do you find the bottom half of the plant sparse of flowers because of not pruning.
 
Any other comments from any others would still be appreciated.
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Nunn00123 View Drop Down
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2010 at 5:53pm
Hi Danny,
I have both clematis, in our garden, Etoile Violette has been in the garden about 15 years, it took about three seasons to settle down, but since then is a mass of flowers every year. I prune it late February to a foot above ground level and give it a mulch of garden compost together with a handful of blood fish and bone. No other treatment is given or needed, other than occasionally tying in wayward stems. I and many others consider this clematis to be one of the easiest to grow.
 
C. Gravetye Beauty has been in the garden for about 10 years, grows though a Camelia shrub, I cut this down to within a few inches of ground level in November, give it a 2 inch layer of garden compost and a handful of bonemeal after pruning. In late February I give it a little more mulch if required and a handfull of Blood fish and bone. The plant is in a very sunny position in well drained soil, so needs watering during dry spells, it is a shy flowering plant but usually manages about a hundred blooms in August through to September.
 
One point, if your soil is in good condition, is mulched on a regular basis there should be no need to keep feeding, in fact too much feed can result in lots of new growth but few flowers.
 
I make a point about Viticellas, I have a species viticella that is planted near one of my greenhouses, I think it is about 12 years old, in the whole of its life I have never fed it, or tended it in any way, other than to cut it down to within a foot of ground level in early spring, each year it grown to about 15 feet and is covered in a mass of flowers.
 
Any group one or three clematis can be planted in the position of an existing clematis, it is a good idea not to plant deeply. A thought: did you plant your Gravetye Beauty deeply, if you did this can seriously delay its development, because it will have to produce a new herbacious crown at  just below soil level before it can settle down into producing flowers.
 
Best of luck and dont dig up your Etoile Violette.
 
Roy Nunn.
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danny connors View Drop Down
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  Quote danny connors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug 2010 at 9:13pm
Thanks Roy for taking the time to give a good account of your clematis. Much appreciated. Reading your comments i will now no longer bother with applying tomorite though will give them some bonemeal towards the end of the year.
 
I normally plant about 2-3inches deep my clematis so this would have been the depth for the Gravetye Beauty.
 
I do have a couple of follow-on questions if okay.
I know your clematis are pretty well established but have you been watering them this year during the dry summer?
Also when you mulch, do you apply the compost right upto and around the base of the stem or give it a bit of breathing room (polomint) - or doesn't it really matter?
It's good to know about replanting new gp 1 and 3 clematis in the same position though i take it i can't replant a  group 2.
 
Thanks again for your help.
 
Danny
 
 
 
 
 
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Nunn00123 View Drop Down
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Aug 2010 at 8:50am
Hi Danny,
 
I have not used Tomorite in years, even to grow Tomatoes.
The depth you planted Gravety Beauty should not have caused much of a problem. It just may need a year or two to get established.
 
We had a wet spring followed by a very dry and hot July. I watered all clematis during this month giving 2 gallons of rainwater per plant every other day, clematis that were planted last autumn or this spring were watered each day. If you can water by hose, time how long it takes to fill a two gallon water can by hose. This is how long the base of each clematis should be watered. The only exception was the viticella growing near the greenhouse referred to previously, this was not watered and did not suffer at all.
 
I mulch right up to the stems with an inch to 2 inches of garden compost.
 
If you read previous Forum entries you will notice that I have problems growing group two clematis, possibly due to soil type and environmental conditions, the only group two's in the garden are those in trials and some Estonian bred clematis which seem to be Wilt free.
 
I hope this is of some help
 
Roy
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danny connors View Drop Down
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  Quote danny connors Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Aug 2010 at 8:26pm
Thanks again Roy.
 
Danny
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yaku View Drop Down
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 12:05pm
Originally posted by Nunn00123

Hi Danny, 
Any group one or three clematis can be planted in the position of an existing clematis, it is a good idea not to plant deeply. A thought: did you plant your Gravetye Beauty deeply, if you did this can seriously delay its development, because it will have to produce a new herbacious crown at  just below soil level before it can settle down into producing flowers.
 


Shallow planting:

I'll never recommend shallow planting of cutting grown plants from Group C (III), firstly they will not have a “crown” at the point of sale, so deep planting will just secure the plants have buds below soil level and can shoot from there if needed.

On the Cl. texensis there are another problem, they may be grafted and in that case they need deep planting so the plant can grow its own roots, the under-stock is only a nurse root and will die away when plants have established its own root-system.

When planting deep you have to consider a couple of things. Firstly be sure the hole do not get waterlogged, if poor drain is a problem raise the planting area.

Secondly ensure the plants will get water to its roots clump, insert a bottle or a tube to water through, if you put topsoil on top of loose compost or pottingmix (what the plant have grown in) water will not penetrate to the roots, water will only go from coarse to finer material, by capillary action, thats why you should NOT put pebbles in the bottom of the pot! (this will cause hanging water)
Cheers Peer







Edited by yaku - 27 Aug 2010 at 12:06pm
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Nunn00123 View Drop Down
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Aug 2010 at 7:16pm
Hi Per,
 
In New Zealand conditions may be considerably different to the UK. Of the 200 odd groups one and two that are planted in the garden and other areas, none were planted deeper than the compost level in the pot. Apart from some that just wont grow in our very alkaline soil, such as sibirica, fusca, flamula and recta, all others have grown well and flowered profusely in their second or third season. I found out the hard way, that the herbacious types are slowed down by deep planting, as I was having to wait for new crowns to develop just below ground level, it was also observed that the original crown when planted deeply only produced roots. Incidentally this is one way to get a few extra plants from herbacious clems, for the amateur. Bury the plant to two or three nodes depth, leave in position for a season or two, then dig the whole plant up and divide at each node where roots have formed and pot into suitable size pots.
 
I buy grafted plants from Germany (not being available in the UK) these I grow on, potting into a 15" long tom, after a season or two I plant these out in the garden. These plants I do ensure that the first node is buried below compost level, but when planting out in the garden, the compost level is always ground level. Recently I have been planting all newly aquired clematis from either 2 or 3 litre long toms into 15" pots and growing them on, this allows the plant to develop a really large and strong root system, plus I can check the exact colour and habit of the plant, which helps me place the plant in the correct position in the garden. Also I can choose the autumn or spring to plant them out, which is not always the season that one can get plants of your choice.
 
I have never found the need to use bottles or tubes, too much trouble to direct the water to one small area, it takes long enough to water my clematis without having to direct water to a slowly draining tube.
 
I have found out most of my techniques by asking around, but advice from 6 experts may result in 6 different answers, it is then up to you to find out what works for your conditions.
 
Roy Nunn
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yaku View Drop Down
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2010 at 12:12pm

G'day Roy.

A couple of things, firstly I have always planted deep (planted in many a clients gardens when landscaping)  (10 – 15 cm, 4” to 6”) when it came to group B & C (I & II) for the group A (I) and some in Group C (integrifolia and so) 5cm (2”) this was at first to keep the roots protected against frost I was told, deepened from 4” to 6” when we moved from Denmark to Sweden (USDA zone 4 – 5) found the benefit was more of ensure survival after an attack of wilt or eaten out of rodents.

When you say you plant only the grafted slightly deeper (recommended depth has always been 6” in order to get the plant to make it's own roots as the nurse roots can't be relied on) Do you get good roots above the understock???

On the watering tube (it's essential with deep planting until plants are established) I know of where Council workers planted (more than 70) clematis out they nearly all died, the reason was from covering the pottingmix/ compost with 2“ (5cm) of top soil, this will stop the water from penetrating to the roots, I have seen Roses (in Sweden) killed from planted in sphagnum peat in plastic clay soil (most probably a sodic clay), the water will not move from the clay to the peat, so they could as well have been planted in a sealed plastic bag. When those was dug out (had to check this as the customer had lost 18 of 20 Roses and naturally wanted replacements ) I did dig them out, the soil was quite damp, but the peat where the roots was was dusty dry.
As Christo mention, a wine bottle where the bottom is knocked out is good, and the preparation can be quite enjoyable. With a lot to water a drip system is great and water saving, we did change from overhead to dippers on our 2years (4litre pots) on the area we did use 11cubic (11,000litre) water for 10mm overhead, now we use 1.1cubic (1,100litre) for 10mm, as we do only water the plants not the tracks and beds and in the same keep the incidence of fungal attack down and less runoff.

A you say the “expert” have different suggestions, still the most just copy and have little experience, and as you say soil type are needed to be taken into consideration.

On the “expert” they have for years said poor or discolorations (greenish) is from growing plants in shade, it's purely from low temp. during the development of the flower (OK it's cooler in the shade) we do get green flowering here 7-8 of 10 springs as well as in the Autumn.

Cheers Peer



Edited by yaku - 28 Aug 2010 at 12:15pm
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Nunn00123 View Drop Down
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2010 at 5:10pm
Hi Per,
 
With the grafted plants obtained from Manfred Westphal in Germany in the Autumn, they will generally have been grafted onto vitalba rootstock earlier in the New Year, so have their own roots well developed, in fact some plants have already started to reject any nourishment from the grafted stock. I find it only necessary to ensure that one node above where its own roots have formed needs to be buried below compost level.
 
Your point about plants dying when planted into Clay, I am not surprised. I always advocate planting into well prepared soil adding orgainic matter and gravel can get over lots of problems with clay soil, but is very costly if the area is extensive. I recal ordering a 10 ton load of gravel and equal amounts of horse manure and digging this into a previous small clay garden. Digging holes into ill prepared clay soil is a recipe for disaster as you either get sumping effect where the holes fill with water resulting in the plants roots being killed, or the plant drys out, if in peat it is difficult to get it to take up moisture once more. In a garden the size we have now raised beds seem to be the answer, but as said we dont have a clay soil now. The problem with peat is that once it has dried out it is quite difficult to get it to take up water again. For this and environmental reasons I have not used peat when potting on plants, prefering to use my own soil and waste product composts. If a plant is obtained in a compost that does not look suitable for that plant to grow in, an extreme example being where an alpine plant that should be grown in soil with sharp drainage is grown in a soggy peat based mix, I will wash all the soil off its roots and plant it in a more suitable compost. This action has resulted in many species plants lasting for years, rather than passing away after their first winter.
 
The other problem I have noticed is the use by propagation nurseries of the plug cells covered by a net bag that is supposed to rot away. I can assure you that these bags do not rot, the fine mesh restricts root growth and in some cases the wet soggy mess that was used as rooting compost results in the junction of root and stem rotting away. I first became aware of this problem when losses of plants over winter became unusually high, but cuttings taken from these plants survived, post mortems revealed the presence of these net bags and a great deal of restricted or rotten roots. I now look for these bags on purchasing plants and carefully remove them. These were first observed in Steptocarpus Plants, but seems to be endemic to most mass produced plants and is being seen more in clematis propogation.
 
I always thought that greenish in clematis sepals was due to cold temperatures. Except for C. vit. Alba Luxureans which seems to have partly green sepals at all times, under all conditions, there has to be an exeption to the rule. I dont like this in a white flower, so planted C. Hagelby White which in our garden and where found in Sweden does not have any green whatsoever.
 
I prefer to recycle my wine bottles rather than burying them in the garden, after removing their contents of course.
 
Best wishes
 
Roy
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Ron.Carlile View Drop Down
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  Quote Ron.Carlile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Aug 2010 at 5:26pm
Hello all
I have just returned after two weeks , and have read the above comments and
I am fascinated by the different way C.texensis and its crosses are treated .
I have two mature C.texensis grown in pots plus 15 this years seedlings .
The two nature plants will all be cut down to two buds above the surface as usual and places in a cold greenhouse , when they shoot each year , I allow them to grow up to six leaves joints high and nip the growth tip out , the side shoots
are then nipped out after four new leave joints have formed , then they are allowed to grow until flowering , this way my plants do not grow to tall and there is a mass of flowers . I was going to photograph them but most of the flowers are over .
I treat all my C.texensis cross varieties this way ,and some of them are years old I just root prune and re pot them as necessary, or those in the ground are covered with new compost and a hand full of fertilizer , to date I have lost a few , mostly due to old age ( or neglect ) but I still have most of the plants or cuttings from the  still .  I am dying to know how the new C.texensis seed
plants turn out , with a bit of luck I hope they will reward me with flowers next year  .  Further I treat C.viorna a its hybrids just the same ,and again they have flowered well for me this year .
I suppose we all have our methods of growing clematis , and the variety makes
it amazing how they manage to get such amazing flowers .
Ron.C
 
 


Edited by Ron.Carlile - 28 Aug 2010 at 5:29pm
Ron.C
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zhang00 View Drop Down
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  Quote zhang00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 2010 at 7:44am
Your point about plants dying when planted into Clay, I am not surprised. I always advocate planting into well prepared soil adding orgainic matter and gravel can get over lots of problems with clay soil, but is very costly if the area is extensive. I recal ordering a 10 ton load of gravel and equal amounts of horse manure and digging this into a previous small clay garden. Digging holes into ill prepared clay soil is a recipe for disaster as you either get sumping effect where the holes fill with water resulting in the plants roots being killed, or the plant drys out, if in peat it is difficult to get it to take up moisture once more.
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