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Clematis Armandii Deformed Leaf Curling

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cookymunster View Drop Down
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  Quote cookymunster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Clematis Armandii Deformed Leaf Curling
    Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 4:51pm
Hi All

Please can you help...

I've just planted my Clematis Armandii Apple Blossom and the NEW leaves are deformed and severely curling. The older growth is fine. There are no pests or insects that otherwise could have tapped into the leaves' main Ribs or Veins.

Do I need to water more?
Is it too hot & dry against the brick wall?

P.S. I'm only in Stoke On Trent so it's not that hot. Also it's planted in John Innes No.2 with a layer of No.3 at bottom for when it's more mature.

Attached are pictures to show what I mean by curling:


  • Bad Leaf Curl
  • Older leaves are OK apart from the example in top left of this pic
  • Some older leaves have a little curling on ends
I hope someone can shed some light in this.
Or is it normal for new growth to curl like this?

Thanks in advance!


Edited by cookymunster - 30 Apr 2011 at 5:02pm
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schristmas View Drop Down
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  Quote schristmas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 2011 at 9:58pm

Difficult to give a difinitive answer, but it looks like the soft fleshy new growth has come under stress as it was forming. This stress causes deformation as the leaf is unable to expand to its normal size.

The cause of the stress could be caused by pest, soil or heat.
As the first two don't seem to be obvious reasons, then I can only assume it is the latter.
Are the roots positioned away from the base of the wall as the soil at the base can get heated by the wall and clematis roots like to be cool. Soil near the base of walls tends to be quite dry and low in nutrients. Alternatively the heat from the wall can affect the soft fleshy growth of new leaves during periods of hot weather especially if they are in contact with the wall.
Armandii types do not like wind as it dries out the leaves, normally diagnosed by the tips of the leaves turning brown and spreading up the leaf so this is another area to be wary of.
 
Hope some of that helped.
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  Quote ton_hannink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 2011 at 8:06pm
The 'Apple Blossom', 'Hendersoni Rubra' and 'Read Heart' give sometimes this kind of leaves is my experience and I have not found the answer. Sometimes later in the season no more problems.
 
Ton
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2011 at 8:29am
Originally posted by ton_hannink

The 'Apple Blossom', 'Hendersoni Rubra' and 'Read Heart' give sometimes this kind of leaves is my experience and I have not found the answer. Sometimes later in the season no more problems.
 
Ton

Cold nights often causes this with us.
Cheers Peer

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  Quote cookymunster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2011 at 1:36pm
Thank you for all your help...

The Clematis is in a large pot 60cm High x 45cm x 45cm, and the pot does stay cool in the sun so the roots should be cool too.

But the rest of the problems that you all mention like wind, cold nights and heat radiated off the wall to the leaves are exactly what this plant is exposed to.

The best I can do then is train the stems up the front of the trellis and not weave the stems in and out touching the wall. I had mounted the trellis 2" away from wall too.

I hope that once the plant is established it will eventually shade the wall and keep it cool.

We'll have to live with the wind though... Our Camellia has suffered wind scorching too Cry Boooo!

Thank you all for your help!

Smile


Edited by cookymunster - 02 May 2011 at 1:39pm
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2011 at 2:01pm
Hi,
 
There is a good chance that the main problem is that C. armandii has been planted in a pot, as it is a fast grower in ideal conditions, it is unlikely that you will be able to provide the moisture and growth stimulants that this plant needs and its roots may become damaged by severe winter weather.
 
I grow a lot of varieties of clematis in my garden in Cambridge but have never grown armandii, because I cannot provide the conditions that it seems to require. I have seen a very few C. armandii growing in other peoples gardens that look really healthy, including plants in the RHS garden Wisley. Its needs I beleive, are a deep rich fertile soil, plenty of moisture in the growing season, protection from cold drying winds, especially in spring. Late spring frosts can really make a mess of this plant, this being one aspect of our garden that rules out armandii, even montanas struggle in our garden. A leaf spotting similar to Rose Black-spot can also become a problem.
 
I would sugest that if at all possible this plant should be planted in the ground, but if you have far from ideal soil you may struggle to keep this plant going for any length of time.
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  Quote ton_hannink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 2011 at 4:05pm
Peer, mine are in the greenhouse >5 degrees Celsius.
 
Roy, I see a 'Red Heart' in the garden and has very healthy leaves even in clay and outside during the winter.
 
Ton
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 8:18am
Originally posted by ton_hannink

Peer, mine are in the greenhouse >5 degrees Celsius.
Ton

Ton, you can get cold damage on plants when temp is below 10deg C, quick temperature drop can cause damage too.
Whats the cover of your greenhouse ?
Ton, is what you call "Red Heart " the one with red anthers you got ??


Edited by yaku - 04 May 2011 at 8:23am
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  Quote Nunn00123 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 10:15am
Hi Peer and Ton,
 
To highlight one of the problems we often have in our garden in spring. For 9 weeks we have had only 6mm of rain and mostly hot sunny weather. The max temperature that I recorded in this period was 24 deg C. min 7 deg C. The average has been between 21 deg C. and 10 deg C. These temperatures are exceptional for us I must stress, but usually spring temperatures are mild.
 
Yesterday I registered 21 deg C. in the garden, last night we had -4 deg C. The result of this is that C. montana Freda, new growth and flowers have been decimated and the whole plant of C. Fond Memories has been cut to ground level, this happened last year resulting in no flowers for the year. There seems to be no damage on any other clematis including C. Fireflame (in flower single flowers only again) and Piilu, being the only group twos that I grow these days.
 
Other plants to suffer are Macleaya, the second time this has been cut down by frost this spring, Cotinus all new growth and flower buds look dead, but the major devastation has been my Hostas, which are looking like par boiled cabbage leaves.
 
Incidentally I visited a local nursery yesterday, where I saw armandii leaves on most plants looking like the picture, but some leaves were even worse being the shade of dark brown leather, this being one of the resons I dont grow armandii and avoid group two clematis.
 
All the plants mentioned in our garden survived temperatures down to -15 deg C. during winter, only to have their soft new growth to be cut down by late frosts.
 
THe remainder of the garden is looking great, the atragenes have flowered, but some koeana hybrids are budding up for their repeat flowering. Most group 3 clematis are over 6 feet high already with a few showing signs of their first flowers. Again C. New Hendersonii (Pettit Foucon) is the first to flower, being a month earlier than last year.
 
Good gardening
 
Roy
 
Incidentally at 10.00 hours the temperature in the shade is now 15 deg C.
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  Quote ton_hannink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 2011 at 9:11pm
Peer,
 
The climate in the greenhouse is very good and that is not the real reason with my plants.
The C. 'Red Heart' is my beautiful armandii with red anthers and very fragrant.
 
Roy,
 
I have visited the last 3 month 2 nurseries with > 100000 armandii each and they are in the greenhouse and some armandii's had the same problem.
They told me that this is not every year and they do not know why, They made analysis of the soil.
 
Ton
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2011 at 8:44am
Originally posted by ton_hannink

Peer,
 
The climate in the greenhouse is very good and that is not the real reason with my plants.

Ton

Ton I still want to know whats the cover of the greenhouse ?? Glass or plastic (polycarbonate)
cheers Peer

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  Quote ton_hannink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 2011 at 7:48pm
My plants are in winter in a greenhouse of 3000 m2. We have glas and under the glas is special material so that you do not get suddenly cold in the greenhouse. This is normal in the greenhouses in Holland.
You must be very careful for suddenly cold!


Edited by ton_hannink - 10 May 2011 at 8:18pm
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  Quote yaku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 May 2011 at 9:04am
Originally posted by ton_hannink


You must be very careful for suddenly cold!

Ton, My interest for the material is on glass the heath/light/cold rays do break and can't escape out of the house again, whereas in plastic they go straight thru (bounces on the floor and goes straight out again and in a plastic house it can  make the temp inside colder than on the outside.
Your answer seems to "kill" the theory on the curly leaves come from cold or cold-drop.
I still think its a environmental effect, rather than a nutritional.
Cheers Peer




Edited by yaku - 11 May 2011 at 9:07am
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