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Crosses of recta/mandshurica/hexapetala with LFHs

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Paul View Drop Down
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Crosses of recta/mandshurica/hexapetala with LFHs
    Posted: 08 Jul 2007 at 4:04pm
Has anybody tried to carry out crosses with the above 3 species and any of the large flowered hybrids?

I have tried a lot of such crosses over the last couple of years using C. recta but they are always unsuccessful. I suspect that the same would also be true for hexapetala and mandshurica?
Paul
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  Quote bcollingwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jul 2007 at 4:31pm

What did you use as the seed parents Paul? LFH or the species? Or both/either? Did you ever get any seed forming, even in the early stages? (I'm just trying to steal knowledge from you there as these crosses are outside my experience!!) Also, do you isolate every time prior to pollination? Personally I (as a rank amateur) would feel more inclined to optimism to use the LFH or patens etc as seed parent (perhaps chat about that if you wish). I think it would be an idea for us all to report the results of our cross-breedings of such nature. Even despite the passage of 300+ years IMHO this is still virgin territory. So any data would be invaluable. I'm willing to pool my results.

As it happens, I have seven or eight lovely seedlings of patens x coactilis right now. They are definitely successful plants, 'successful' in the sense that they are viable, complete taxons and I am certain they will be happy/able to produce flowers soon. But they are easier, because they are possibly closer to each other. If there was any possibility of a cutting of your hexapetala I'd be happy! -  to be honest I'd just like to see some good photos of the flowers and foliage. I would be pleased to send you something in return!!
B. R. Collingwood
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Paul View Drop Down
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jul 2007 at 7:25am

I have tried reciprocal crosses with some of the couplings but you need a good eye, steady hand and a good deal of patience to emasculate the flower clusters of recta.

The usual pattern in both types of cross is that they initially seem to take and the seeds start to swell. Within a few weeks, however, they abort.  Using the LFH as the seed parent does look more promising though than the other way round.

The only reference I have come across to a commercial plant with such a parentage is the little-known ‘Pellieri’, supposedly a lanuginosa x recta hybrid. This is 1.5-2m tall and has blue-violet flowers 10cm in diameter. I wonder if this plant exists today or even if it was a ‘self’. Maybe working with the species has also more chance of success.

It would be nice to have a central data pool on compatibility.

Essig provides a good basis on compatibility in his studies on seedling morphology (BCS Journal 1992). For the most part, that is straight forward with crosses between Types I and II always being incompatible. Subgenus Flammula seems to be in a bit of an ambiguous situation. Although they have Type II seedlings, they do not seem to be readily compatible with other Type IIs such as Patentes.

Brian, I only have a supposed seedling of hexapetala which I expect to flower next year so can’t help you with a cutting. Thorncroft do offer it though (angustifolia).

Paul
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2007 at 1:05pm
Well, Brian, you're hardly an amateur, not with the results you've been getting!  Paul, I've been looking for similar information on crossing mandshurica and recta with LFH and have found no information.

In searching for this, I have found crosses within the Flammula subgenus and across subgenera that I've found interesting, though.  This is not a conclusive list, as I would have ignored plants not hardy in my zone, like many in the Campanella subgenus, etc.   In the spirit of a "central data pool":

CROSSES FROM THE HULL DATABASE

recta x flammula
integrifolia x recta
lanuginosa x recta
terniflora x recta
flammula x viticella
viorna x M. Le Coultre
crispa x integrifolia
hirsutissima v. scottii x texensis
texensis x LFH, types I and II
pitcheri x LFH

CROSSES FROM THE WEB

integrifolia and hexapetela (C. 'Center Star'; don't know who is pollen parent)

CROSSES FROM M.A. BESKARAVAINAJA:

fusca x jackmanii
fusca x candida
fusca x viorna
fusca x recta
fusca x hexapetala
fusca x integrifolia
fusca x triloba
fusca x texensis (seeds didn't develop or weren't viable)
Victoria x fusca
Miniatiurnyii x fusca
Pamiat Sedtsa (
'Intermedia rosea' x 'Candida') x fusca
integrifolia x fusca
x candida x fusca







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Paul View Drop Down
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jul 2007 at 2:27pm
This is nice input Mike - you've been doing a lot of searching.
 
I've been tempted to have a crack at translating some of Beskaravainaja's publications as I believe there lies a wealth of untapped information for non russian speakers. It's a bit of a daunting task though (I don't know any russian).

The Type II subgenera are comprised of Viticella, Patentes, Viorna and Flammula. All the rest are Type I.
 
Already from your list, it is clear that the first 3 readily interbreed.  Crosses between Viorna and  Flammula seem generally feasible. C. flammula itself seems a bit more 'flexible' (hardly promiscuous though) in that it crosses with viticella (I had no success with viticella x recta).

Mandshurica has double the number of chromosomes as most other Clematis species and I can image that would be a special case.

What did you have in mind Brian as a central data pool.  Were you thinking of an  exchange on the forum as we are doing now or something more formal?
In its simplest form it would be very useful to have a record of Type II x Type II crosses which don't work. Perhaps of less interest would be a similarType I x Type I record. For Type I x Type II, a list of crosses which do work would be needed but I guess this would stay empty.
Paul
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