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Clematis viticella seedling

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ton hannink View Drop Down
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  Quote ton hannink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Clematis viticella seedling
    Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 9:10pm
Between my seedlings I have found one which is other than the most seedlings. The yellow cream color in the middle is beautiful.
 
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Jackog View Drop Down
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  Quote Jackog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 2007 at 10:16pm
Terrific Ton, congrats, Jack
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  Quote bcollingwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2007 at 12:06am
Looks wonderful Ton, Fabulous result.

Edited by bcollingwood - 12 Sep 2007 at 7:13am
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richardh View Drop Down
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  Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Sep 2007 at 7:47pm
Looks lovely,Ton.   Congratulations.  Really,really good colouring.   The foliage in the background is the same colour as my face (Envy)
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Timo View Drop Down
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  Quote Timo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2007 at 4:10pm
A nice Viticella, Ton. Can you compare it with 'Tango'?
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ton hannink View Drop Down
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  Quote ton hannink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Sep 2007 at 7:55pm
Timo,
 
I compare the plant with 'Tango' and inside they are both almost equal.
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Mike Miller View Drop Down
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  Quote Mike Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2007 at 1:48am
Ton, I love this one.  Do you know the seed parent?  I love when something like this comes around; thanks for sharing.  Now get it propagated and send some to the U.S.!
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  Quote suzymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2007 at 5:03pm
Very nice, Ton.
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ton hannink View Drop Down
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  Quote ton hannink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2007 at 9:34pm
A new viticella seedling VIT021 has almost the some flowers.
I like these colors in the viticellas.
 
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Paul View Drop Down
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2007 at 9:53am
Very nice Ton, I prefer the shape of this one and it still has that lovely colouring.
Paul
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MMiller View Drop Down
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  Quote MMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2007 at 1:09pm
You've come up with some great viticella seedlings.  These two are special: the cream against the maroon is beautiful.  Do you know what they might have crossed with, or is this just a chance mutation?
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  Quote bcollingwood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2007 at 7:26pm
It really looks good, that, Ton.
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keith View Drop Down
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  Quote keith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Oct 2007 at 11:11pm
It's a corking flower Ton!
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Wim Snoeijer View Drop Down
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  Quote Wim Snoeijer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2007 at 8:52pm

I hestitate to write again in this BCS Forum with reference to my previous experience but I was motivated by someone to do so.

 

Following this Forum it is interesting to see how members reply on seedlings of which a picture of the first flower is shown. The reaction is usually very positive and very enthousiastic. This is of course a very good thing. But when a seedling, whether a chance seedling or a seedling from deleberate crossbreeding, produces its first flower a more important period starts.

 

Everybody involved in Clematis knows I am a Clematis breeder at J. van Zoest nursery in Holland. So, with this information I do not want to knock down the enthousiast replies on first flowers but to give a little bit of insight what is going on at the nursery.

 

When a new seedling flowers for the first time we directly select the plant. This means that the seedling is given a second year or that the plant is thrown away. We always keep in mind that a Clematis seedling might show different flowers in the second year of flowering.

When a seedling has passed this first selection we follow the plant another year and in that second or third year we decide whether to propagate or not. When the seedling is not propagated we might keep it for several reason or throw it away.

When we do propagate the seedling it will end up at the nursery when, again after 2 3 years, we have enough material for 50 plants or so or more. 

During this period at the nursery we check if the plant is easy to propagate, easy to grow on the nursery, easy to tie it up with tape along the 90 cm bamboo cane, disease resistance, etc. When after this nursery period the plants fails to meet our standard, the whole stock is thrown away. In that same period we will also plant one plant in the collection, which means full soil and in Boskoop we have peat soil. In the collection we can see how the plant grows as a normal garden plant. As this collection exsists of only clematis plants (400+) it means that plants are more susceptable to diseases compared with any garden. We also do not spray agains pests and diseases in the clematis collection. So, when a new selection survives in the collection, it sure should be okay for the garden.

 

The above period of time covers about 5-7 years. During that period we decide to introduce the selection. But sometimes we decide that the plant is still not good enough and that the whole stock is thrown away after all.

 

 

A nice example is of the Viticella Group selection shown on the picture of which we now have around 150 stockplants and many more stock as rooted cuttings. In September this year we decided that this selection did not meet our standards. The considerations were :

1 - A saleble plant (2 liter pot with 90cm bamboo cane) hardly flowers. This means that the plant has to be sold by its label. Today that is commercially not good enough anymore.

2 The flat flowers are fully nodding. The few flowers on the saleble plant are seen from the side or above, the stunning inside colours are not visible unless the flower is turned by hand.

3 Today Clematis trade is mainly in spring with plants being sold with flowers. Being a Viticella Group selection means that the plants will not be in flower for the spring trade.

4 The plant in full soil in the collection died after 3 years. However we do not know the reason for that, it gives a clue that the plant might not be strong enough to survive for a considerable number of years in the garden.

 

Unless a miracle happens the whole stock of this selection will be thrown away this winter.

 

From the above information it should be clear that the picture is taken from arranged flowers.

 

Wim S
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Jackog View Drop Down
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  Quote Jackog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2007 at 9:44pm
Thank you Wim, for very interesting and useful information. Clematis breeding clearly requires lots of patience and dedication!
 
Best wishes,
Jack
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2007 at 8:48am
Wim
Your explanation on the  hazards  involved in bringing a promising new seedling from first flowering to commercialization are invaluable. It gives us amateurs some insight into the tough criteria that are needed nowadays.

With your background in the industry it would be great to hear more about some of your experiences in the breeding of clematis.

I think a lot of us realize that the first flowers that we get may not be representative of the mature plant. However, after a wait of several years, we are busting with excitement and it has to come out somewhere.
Paul
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ton hannink View Drop Down
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  Quote ton hannink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2007 at 6:09pm
Wim, you give us a good idea about seleting new cultivars. I know how you do it in the right way but there are some new introductions from other nurseries which are not worth to introduce.
 
For us as hobbyist it is interesting to see what you can get with crosses. Now on this kind of forums we can see what are the results with seedlings. In the nurseries they have a lot of seedlings but we do not see any results only a new product.
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MMiller View Drop Down
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  Quote MMiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Oct 2007 at 6:45pm
Wim, very interesting, and I appreciate the insight.  It makes absolute sense that in order to continue putting money into raising and propagating a new cultivar, it must be able to be sold.  I also found it interesting that the viticellas, not in bloom in the spring, have this mark against them, but again it makes sense.

I think the cultivar is beautiful, though, and hope it might be used for further crosses!
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  Quote Timo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2007 at 5:46pm
It's a pity that the Viticellas are not easily sold. We can't blame you, Wim, because among your introductions (http://www.clematisinfo.nl/ -> Clematis -> Introductions by Wim Snoeijer) there are several nice Viticellas.

Edited by Timo - 17 Oct 2007 at 5:48pm
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Helen View Drop Down
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  Quote Helen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jan 2008 at 9:53pm
Ton a very good looking viticella,Thumbs%20Up hope you post next years flowers.
I hope that we see more garden trials of new viticellas, I so love the very floriferous ones. Add a lovely perfume, you will be on to a winner for sure. 
 
Helen (Sussex UK)
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  Quote Peter Gooch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Jan 2008 at 1:25pm
Hi Ton
I love the first picture its beautiful! 
I just wanted to add to Wims' post about not introducing plants that don't flower on the cane and wanted to point out that that clematis (pictured above by Wim) would sell like hot cakes at Hampton Court Palace Flower Show and then on into the autumn and winter via mail orders that came about as a result!!!
I have to say that nearly half our trade is done via mail order and therefor half of our plants are never sold with any flower on because they never get to see them before they arrive.
 
Of course I know exactly what you are saying Wim but just wanted to point out that the viticella and cultivars in the Late Large Flowered group, are only going to get more press because they are so easy to grow and thus become more popular with regular gardeners not just enthusiasts like us! 
Which leads me to my next point. Would anyone like to offer an alternative to the way we growers vet our plants for introduction?
Maybe we should start a new topic for this!
 
Ton, the plants you sent me are doing wonderfully and I cant wait to see them waking up soon.  Will post some pics to you as and when they come out.
 
All the best
Peter Gooch


Edited by Peter Gooch - 23 Jan 2008 at 1:31pm
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Wim Snoeijer View Drop Down
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  Quote Wim Snoeijer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2008 at 10:28am

Hi Peter,

It is fantastic that you wrote your views on the introductions of new cultivars and your trade.
 
Of course we are aware that a lot (read: most) of clematis trade is done without flowers. This is also so for our own whole sale trade. We did introduce summer flowering cultivars like Clematis MIENIE BELLE and Clematis JOLLY GOOD. These cultivar do flower in autumn on the cane, but indeed, as written, most plants are traded in autumn and winter.
 
We also see a change in the clematis trade, as I wrote before, towards spring sale of flowering plants. This started several years ago and this trade is still growing.
 
Apart from that, we do trial our new selections in the clematis collection, in full soil. When you see the difference between the plant shown on the picture above and the new introduction Clematis I AM® LADY Q, you would have been convinced which one to choose.
 
But, since I did the post with the picture above, we had a visit from a wholesale nursery that was unpatiently interested in that clematis. The reason is that this nursery want to trade clematis grown with a longer bamboo cane instead of the 90 cm (3 ft) we do.
 
Or, as we say in Holland: tomorrow everything is different.
 
Best wishes,
 
Wim
 
 
 
Wim S
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richardh View Drop Down
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  Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jan 2008 at 10:28pm
I tend to agree with you ,Wim,on your earlier point regarding selling clematis,or indeed any other plant without flowers,becoming increasingly difficult.

Apart from a few local shows,where everything we take is in flower,most of our sales are now down to selling plants that we have in flower in our display garden,where we have about 300 different clematis including National Collection of Viticella

In reply to your input ,Peter,I think that the only way growers can vet new introductions is to trial plants in several different conditions. It is interesting that Wim states that in 'Boskoop we have peat soil'whilst here on the marsh in Lancashire we have alkaline soil with high ph. This can make quite a difference to flower colour and plant habit as can different feeding regimes.
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  Quote Peter Gooch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2008 at 9:18am
I do think your right Wim and Richard. If you're at a show or on your nursery, you will always sell more plants if they are in flower because there is much greater chance of the impulse purchase even with people who have never tried clematis before.  I was just playing 'Devils Advocate' and I think we all realise that both 'Mienie Belle' and 'Jolly Good' are going to become staple plants in the display section of our nurseries and garden centres.  As growers what interests us is what will sell.
I will put my last point here though.  If Tons new viticella pictured at the top is going to recieve such praise and admiration from the non-commersial users on this site and possibly the wider public and if that plant does not fit into the criteria of our trialing programs, will we be loosing out as traders if we did not introduce that plant?      After all I guess we cant always be right!!!  Example would be 'Purpurea Plena Elegans' don't often see that in flower on a 90cm cane but we would be lost without that plant wouldn't we?
 
Not being too serious here, but its just interesting to see how easy it would be to loose out, on what would be a very good garden plant, if we as growers are not prepared to conceed that it might not be in flower on the cane. As we can see above the public have spoken.
Peter
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  Quote Peter Gooch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2008 at 9:21am
Would like to add that I do respect both your opinions and believe that we as growers in general do have the publics best interests at heart when we select our new plants. Truly I dont mean any offence!
 
Peter
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ton hannink View Drop Down
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  Quote ton hannink Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Jan 2008 at 6:05pm
Peter, I did not throw away the plant because I have got such good admiration from the non-commersial users on this site and Gardenbuddies.
An other interesting seedling I have got is a viticella with the color of 'Westerplatte'.
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  Quote Peter Gooch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Jan 2008 at 12:37pm
Thats great news Ton.  I love to see new cultivars coming along.  It so exciting to think that there are so many people out there breading new plants all the time and that one day they may be available to buy.
We have a clematis 'Pat Coleman' which was just found in someones back garden a few miles away and it has to be one of the most beautiful white early large flowered I have ever seen and we are really proud to have it in our nursery.
Keep it up folks we want your new plants!
Peter
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