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Clematis peterae or Clematis gouriana?

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Category: Clematis
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URL: http://www.britishclematis.org.uk/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=151
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Topic: Clematis peterae or Clematis gouriana?
Posted By: Wim Snoeijer
Subject: Clematis peterae or Clematis gouriana?
Date Posted: 10 Oct 2008 at 8:35pm
Dear Clematarians,
 
In 2006 John Howells gave me a few plants from his collection. One of these plants is now in full flower. John gave the plant to me labelled as Clematis peterae. Now I have a big plant in flower I wonder if this name is correct. It is a bit of a puzzle.
 
Clematis peterae forms a complex with Clematis gouriana, Clematis javana, Clematis grata and Clematis kerriana. It seems impossible to solve the identity, would there be a necessity to do so.
 
References give different descriptions depending on the origin. Usually Clematis peterae is described as having entire leaflets, but so have forms of Clematis gouriana and Clematis grata. Also the pubescence of the stems differs, one says Clematis gouriana is glabrous, the other says it is pubescent.
 
A few stems are now about 2 meters long, most are shorter. All stems flower, an axillary inflorescence with several flowers. The flowers are of a good cream colour, almost "butter" yellow, so darker than on the pictures.
The scent is absolutely fantastic (for my nose that is). I was weeding at least 10 meters away from the plant in between several beds of large pot clematis while I detected a heavy scent. That is how I discovered this Clematis from John was in flower. For that reason alone I will propagate the plant next year but will try winter cuttings aswell.
 
One of the most obvious characteristic are the stipule-like leaves. The references list this characteristic but only as stipules of the petiole. On my plant there are also stipules at the base of the inflorescense.
Closest to this plant is Grey-Wilson on page 39 who refers to the plant as Clematis gouriana subsp. lishanensis.
 
I wish I also could upload scent together with the pictures.
 
Best wishes from Holland,
 
Wim
 
 
 
 
 
 


-------------
Wim S



Replies:
Posted By: Peter Gooch
Date Posted: 11 Oct 2008 at 9:21am
Hi Wim,
I could not answer your questions about this plant but it sounds like a stunner if its scent it that good. Will you be breeding from this plant even if you cannot be certain if its name is correct? I cannot see why not because it is scent that we all want to get more of into clematis.
What is the scent like, vanilla, chocolate, roses, cowslip?
I see from the pictures that it is in flower on the 1 meter bambo aswell, so could it be something that will be in propagation for sale?
 
Best wishes


-------------
Peter Gooch
Thorncroft Clematis Nursery


Posted By: Wim Snoeijer
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2008 at 7:33am

Good Morning Peter,

A quick reply from work now and yes I will definately use the plant for crossbreeding. You are so right that we "need" more fragrant clematis.
 
So, what is the scent about? Difficult to describe. I would go for similar as Clematis mandshurica but heavier. So like a heavy vanilla scent.
 
I will propagate first next year and when we have more than one plant (an ICNCP prescription) we will consider to give the clone a cultivar name.
 
The plant from John has most stems that grow to about 80cm high and than bend over downwards (forgot to tie up) and these are now in flower.
 
Best wishes from Holland,
 
Wim


-------------
Wim S


Posted By: Nunn00123
Date Posted: 13 Oct 2008 at 11:33am

Hi Wim,

I don’t have first hand knowledge of either of these plants, but the Flora of China key does offer some differences between the two clematis.

C. peterae Leaf blades usually undivided, adaxially sparsely puberulous, base usually cordate or subcordate, margin often entire or sparsely dentate.

Sepal apex Truncate.

 

C. gouriana Leaves 1pinnate, leaflet blades glabrous or sparsely puberulous only on the midvein.

Unfortunately I do not have access to the full flora at the moment.

 

Cheers

 

Roy



Posted By: Nunn00123
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2008 at 3:47pm
Hi Wim,
 
I have found some pictures of C. gouriana taken in the late Magnus Johnsons garden in Sweden.
I will send you these by E mail as I still cannot post images on the forum.
 
You will notice that the plants leaf formation is entirely different to your plant and there seems to be little resemblance to C. peterae or gourinana scetches found in the current Flora of China.
 
I will have a look through my information to see if I can find anything that resembles this leaf form.
 
Cheers
 
Roy


Posted By: Nunn00123
Date Posted: 14 Oct 2008 at 4:18pm
Hi again Wim,
 
The nearest to the description and the scetch in the current Flora of China is C. peterae. I note that Magnuses C. gouriana is extremely vigorous 6 meters plus and flowers from July to September in the Sundstroms garden. Is your plant as vigorous and is the scent pleasant, as the Sudstrom plant is not that pleasant.
 
Cheers
 
Roy


Posted By: Wim Snoeijer
Date Posted: 15 Oct 2008 at 7:52pm
Dear Roy,
 
Thanks for your messages on both at the Forum and private. In those 1970-1990 years Jan Fopma bought a lot of plants from all around the world including from Magnus Johnson. So Jan had a plant in his collection labelled Clematis gouriana ex Magnus Johnson. But I have always had doubt if this plant was indeed a Clematis gouriana.
 
Thanks also for refering to the website of the Flora of China. I had full access but indeed, sometimes it is not.
 
I have been so free to put some characteristics together of 3 species. These characteristics are not enough to identify a species with but I include them for those Clematarians who like to puzzle.
Pubescence on both stems and leaves is something very unreliable. The references listed provide that information but is hardly of any help. So I did not include that.
 
I have cut the stem with the largest inflorescences, which was about 70 cm long, and dried it for herbarium. I need to past them on paper of course, a full winter job as I collected probably over 200 stems this year , and than the herbarium will be available for research from our National Herbarium Leiden, The Netherlands. Anybody can request a lone of this herbarium via a National Herbarium from Leiden. But the nomenclature will be solved when I decide to give John's plant a cultivar name, after I manage to propagate it. At the moment I still have this only one plant so quite at the edge of extinction.
 
Keep on puzzling and let me know!!! Thanks.
 
Best wishes from Holland,
 
Wim
 
***
 
Clematis ? ex John Howells

leaf

pinnate with 5 leaflets

leaf margin

a few coarse dentate teeth

stipule-like leaves

present

flower fragrance

very fragrant

flower colour

"butter" yellow

tepal inside

glabrous

tepal outside

glabrous with villous margin

tepal apex

emarginate

 

Grey-Wilson (2000) Clematis. The Genus.

 

Clematis gouriana (page 38)

leaf

pinnate (5-7 leaflets) occasionally ternate or biternate

leaf margin

a few coarse dentate teeth

stipules

 

flower fragrance

 

flower colour

creamy-white, sometimes flushed with greenish-yellow

tepal inside

puberulous

tepal outside

dense puberulous

tepal apex

 

 

Clematis gouriana subsp. lishanensis (page 39)

leaf

 

leaf margin

 

stipules

present

flower fragrance

 

flower colour

yellowish-green to pale yellow

tepal inside

glabrous

tepal outside

 

tepal apex

 

 

Clematis grata (page 39)

leaf

pinnate to bipinnate or ternate

leaf margin

coarsely toothed

stipules

 

flower fragrance

fragrant

flower colour

greenish-white or cream

tepal inside

glabrous

tepal outside

 

tepal apex

 

 

Clematis peterae (page 38)

leaf

pinnate, occasionally ternate

leaf margin

entire or with 1-2 teeth

stipules

 

flower fragrance

 

flower colour

white or creamy-white

tepal inside

finely downy

tepal outside

finely downy

tepal apex

 

 

S.L. Kapoor (1962) Flowering plants of India.

 

Clematis gouriana (page 22)

leaf

pinnate or bipinnate or biternate, in pinnate leaves leaflets 5-7

leaf margin

entire or irregularly distantly toothed

stipules

Further there are specimens with inflorescences branching from very near the base and in such cases the lower foliaceous bracts are very near to the stem and may be mistaken for stipules. These forms might have been named as C. substipulata . But an examination of a large number of [herbarium] sheets of Clematis gouriana reveals all grades of intermediary characters on the same specimens and as such I do not consider it justifiable to give the two forms seperate specific or varietal ranking.

flower fragrance

scented

flower colour

pale or greenish-white

tepal inside

glabrescent or villo-pubescent

tepal outside

villous with villo-tomentose border

tepal apex

obtuse or abruptly acute

 

Clematis grata (page 29)

leaf

pinnate or occasionally bipinnate

leaf margin

irregularly incisedly serrate or crenate-serrate or few thooted or very rarely entire

stipules

 

flower fragrance

fragrant

flower colour

cream-coloured

tepal inside

glabrescent or puberulus or villously hairy

tepal outside

villo-tomentose

tepal apex

acute or obtuse or truncate or retuse

 

www.eFloras.org () Flora of China. website

 

Clematis gouriana

leaf

pinnate

leaf margin

entire or rarely 1-denticulate

stipules

 

flower fragrance

 

flower colour

white

tepal inside

sparsely puberulous

tepal outside

usually densely puberulous, margin velutinous

tepal apex

obtuse to truncate

 

Clematis peterae var. peterae

leaf

pinnate

leaf margin

entire or to 2-dentate on each side

stipules

 

flower fragrance

 

flower colour

white

tepal inside

appressed puberulous

tepal outside

densely puberulous or rarely glabrous, margin velutinous

tepal apex

obtuse or truncate

 

Clematis peterae var. lishanensis

leaf

2-pinnate

leaf margin

entire

stipules

 

flower fragrance

 

flower colour

 

tepal inside

glabrous or nearly so

tepal outside

densely puberulous

tepal apex

 

 

Yang & Huang (1995) The Genus Clematis L. in Taiwan.

 

Clematis gouriana (page 220)

leaf

flammuliform

leaf margin

entire

stipules

4, palmate, coarsely serrate, chartaceous

flower fragrance

 

flower colour

yellowish-green or pale yellow

tepal inside

glabrous or nearly so

tepal outside

densely villose

tepal apex

acute-mucronulate

 

Clematis grata (page 222)

leaf

ternate, pinnate or biternate

leaf margin

coarsely serrate

stipule-like leaves

 

flower fragrance

 

flower colour

yellowish-green or pale yellow

tepal inside

glabrous or sparsely velutinous

tepal outside

densely villose

tepal apex

acuted

 

Magnus Johnson (2001) The Genus Clematis.

 

Clematis gouriana (page 428)

leaf

pinnate or sometimes bipinnate, seldom biternate

leaf margin

simple [entire] or irregularly sparsely toothed

stipules

 

flower fragrance

fragrant

flower colour

white or greenish white to creamy white

tepal inside

glabrous or pubescent

tepal outside

pubescent

tepal apex

obtuse or short cuspidate, sometimes emarginate

 

Clematis grata (page 430)

leaf

usually pinnate, at times bipinnate or ternate

leaf margin

irregularly incisedly serrate or crenate or with a few teeth or very seldom entire

stipules

 

flower fragrance

fragrant

flower colour

creamy white

tepal inside

almost glabrous, fine downy or pubescent

tepal outside

soft downy to tomentose

tepal apex

acute or obtuse or truncate or emarginate

 

Clematis peterae (page 437)

leaf

pinnate with 5 leaflets

leaf margin

simple [entire] or on both sides 1-4 toothed

stipules

leaf-bud scales

flower fragrance

fragrant

flower colour

white or yellowish

tepal inside

pubescent

tepal outside

pubescent

tepal apex

acute or almost obtuse

 



-------------
Wim S


Posted By: Everett
Date Posted: 27 Jan 2009 at 1:55pm

I had a plant bought as  gouriana in my previous garden. It was extremely vigorous bearing in mind the soil was sandy and poor, making coarse growth of at least 6m every year after being hard pruned. The stems were pinkish/brown and heavily ribbed. Scent-yes it had a smell that I would describe as somewhere between Channel No.7 and a compost heap! Being a mere male, I liked the scent! E



Posted By: Bengt Sundström
Date Posted: 29 Sep 2009 at 9:35am
Dear Wim and all others,
yesterday I replanted what Dr Johnson named as C. peterae and searched on the net and found this site and forum. I photographed the species and also  C. gouriana but did not succeed to upload the pictures. How do I do this. Pictures from Photoshop in jpeg were rejected!!! Strange indeed.
 
The pictures of C. peterae are very similar to yours and C. gouriana is very different. We grow it on our house and it is big and would cover our house if my wife did not cut it back each year.
 
Best
Bengt


-------------
Bengt


Posted By: breezly
Date Posted: 19 Apr 2011 at 8:54pm
Hi,

I came accross this forum when I was googling about clematis plants. The photos you posted are clearly Clematis peterae. If you click into the website www. plantdatabase you can see the photos of the same plant which were taken from a labelled plant in the Botanic gardens in Dublin from their collection of Clematis. Hope this helps even if it is a couple of years late!.

B


Posted By: Wim Snoeijer
Date Posted: 20 Apr 2011 at 7:21am
Thanks, B, for the information. The plant is still alive and actually I repotted it yesterday. I hope the plant is in flower when the International Clematis Society visit the nursery in June.
Best wishes,
Wim


-------------
Wim S


Posted By: yaku
Date Posted: 25 Apr 2011 at 8:28am
Hi Wim.
The pics look and description sounds like what I got as Cl. grata, here with us it's flowering is during the Autumn (not this year I think, as it has been hard pruned and moved ) the stems roots as they touch the ground.
Cheers Peer



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